Being able to listen to those who refuse the vaccine

In the midst of the fifth wave of the COVID-19 pandemic, attention is turning more than ever to those who are not vaccinated. This group, which constitutes less than 15% of the Quebec population, has as many points of view as there are realities. Since dialogue does not exist on both sides, La Converse tried to open it to find out more.

Here is what some of them have to say, and what experts say in return: “I am not anti-vaccine,” says Emmanuel* right away. For this father of a family, it is the imposition of the measure that is a problem. “Some vaccines I have taken, others have not, it's still my choice”, he explains to us. For the COVID-19 vaccine, it is its effectiveness that he calls into question and that led him not to be vaccinated. For him, there is a lack of information about the vaccine. In particular, humans fear that receiving several vaccines for the same disease could weaken the immune system. A vaccine that is 90% effective would change his mind, he said, before adding that he was wary of the most recent vaccines. For example, under the best conditions, the flu vaccine Prevents disease for 40% to 60% of the people who receive it.

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Emmanuel supports health measures such as social distance, wearing a mask and washing hands. The Montreal resident indicates that his decision is informed by the extensive research he has carried out with various sources: “I consult the blogs of doctors who are for, and those who are against.” He would like there to be a greater diversity of points of view in the public sphere. “We hear the opinion of doctors who are in favor of vaccination, but not that of those who are against it. We always hear the side of the government, but not the side of the people who are against it,” he regrets. Ali*, who is in his mid-20s, caught COVID-19 last spring. Fortunately, he recovered well. “The vaccine is experimental.

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I don't need this experimental vaccine that was hastily made in less than a year. Even today, it is in the process of being improved,” believes the man who says he takes active care of his health through sport, healthy eating and spirituality. He compares the situation to other treatments. “Vaccines against measles, hepatitis or tetanus were produced over decades,” he recalls, adding that he understands the side effects of immunization provided by vaccines against COVID-19. He is also worried about pharmaceutical interests. “I am looking at both camps to get an idea of the situation. I am not stuck in conspiracy ideas, but I doubt the opinion and recommendations of the so-called experts who can be seen everywhere in the mass media,” he says. “As soon as you open your mouth and say that you are unvaccinated, you are a conspiracy theorist,” sighs Marcelle*, a woman in her sixties.

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Tensions are being felt within her couple, while her husband, who is vaccinated, deplores her position. For her, pharmaceutical interests should be a wake-up call, as should the alleged side effects of vaccines. “I am a vaccinee, I had my daughters vaccinated against other diseases. I am not someone who lives in conflict and claims,” she explains. His position is based in particular on the words of medical luminaries, who, in his opinion, have a lot to lose by speaking out against vaccines for COVID-19. She is perplexed by the lack of diversity of viewpoints. “Why don't we take into account the opinions of those who disagree? Have we ever seen a debate here on TV where people say why we are for it and why we are against it? ”

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What may change her mind is a vaccine that treats the strain of the virus, which does not require multiple doses. This is an argument also made by Dr. Gary Kobinger, a specialist who co-invented the Ebola vaccine and who wants governments to look into studying a generalist vaccine. A new vaccine whose development would take longer, but which would protect against variants of the virus.

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A doctor's opinion

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The researcher, professor and child psychiatrist Cécile Rousseau, Canada Research Chair, has conducted extensive research on COVID-19. She has done research on unvaccinated people in Quebec, but also in Ontario and Alberta. She points out that, in this debate, the two most antagonistic groups — the “antivaxs”, who see the vaccine as an assault or a weapon, and those who believe that unvaccinated people are responsible for all our misfortunes, that they should be punished or not treated — are not so different from each other, a bit like a mirror effect. To answer the doubts of Emmanuel, Ali and Marcelle, Dr. Rousseau explains the following: “There are a lot of infectious agents in our environments. The human body has the ability to defend itself against quite a few of them,” she recalls. She gives the example of children who are exposed to a large number of them, especially in daycare. They build their defenses as they go, so they develop their immunity and contract fewer and fewer diseases. “Immunity is built from exposure to infectious agents that we are able to defeat.

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However, there are some infectious agents that our body will not be able to defeat,” adds the researcher, citing the cases of polio, tetanus and rabies. “Your immune system does not get lazy when you are given a vaccine. There is no competition between natural immunity and the immunity conferred by vaccines,” summarizes the professor. The messenger RNA vaccine used against the coronavirus that causes COVID-19 is relatively low-risk compared to other vaccines used previously, especially those against whooping cough and diphtheria. “There are relatively few side effects and fewer risks than with some other vaccines,” says the psychiatrist.

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So much so that you may have a stronger reaction when you receive an influenza vaccine. Among the risks that have been identified, there is for example that of thrombosis with AstraZeneca or myocarditis and pericarditis. Alternatives exist for those who are at risk of suffering from these diseases. “The rates of side effects are not extraordinary, and in this case, the risk of the vaccine is less than the risk associated with coronavirus,” summarizes Dr. Rousseau. It's a fact, the COVID-19 vaccine was developed rapidly. However, the messenger RNA technology that has been used has been known and used since 1961.. Given the urgency of the situation, thousands of teams have been working on the problem, and data has been collected by health systems around the world, which has accelerated things considerably. “What makes up for the speed of development is that we have a lot more data on the coronavirus vaccine than on vaccines that took decades to develop because it took longer to accumulate the same amount of data,” says the researcher. If, for the other vaccines, clinical trials have been conducted on thousands of people, for the one against COVID-19, millions of people have tested it. “Side effects occur either immediately or within four to six weeks after the vaccine — not after. What we do know is that there will be no major problem with this vaccine,” says Dr. Rousseau.

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Understanding fears

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“Individual fears, whether in relation to health or political and economic criticism of science or pharmacology, are legitimate questioning positions in a democracy, and completely respectable,” believes Dr. Rousseau. The researcher goes on to say that it is justified to be critical of the health system, science and pharmaceutical companies. “It is true that the pharmaceutical industries are making a lot of money, that they are part of the multinational economy, that there are commercial interests,” she says.

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The same goes for the scientific community, which doesn't say everything. “There have been a lot of scientific scandals in recent decades, whether in terms of publication of results, bias, or commercial collusion. There are good reasons why people have doubts and say they don't trust. You should know that not all words that are critical of pharmaceutical lobbies or of the way in which science announces itself and imposes itself are not conspiracy theories,” she says. As part of her research, Dr. Rousseau looked at a sample of unvaccinated people in Canada. “It's a very heterogeneous group, the majority of people who have low social capital. So we're talking about people who are in difficult economic conditions.”

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However, they are not the ones we hear when we refer to unvaccinated people. The specialist also wants vaccinated people not to be presented as automatically in favor of vaccines. “What my research has shown is that not all vaccinated people are convinced of the validity of the vaccine. Ambivalence and criticism are just as present among vaccinated people. There are people critical of the vaccine among the vaccinated, and among the unvaccinated, others who consider it.”

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This ambivalence can be linked to several things, in particular to a critical vision of medicine, or to an alternative approach. In speeches, we often find the influence of fears. These may be related to personal experiences with vaccines or with the health system as well as to the side effects of certain medications or medical procedures. Moreover, some people adhere to an alternative approach to medicine — such as naturopathy, natural immunity, alternative medicine — or fear the invasive nature of medicine. It was an interest in alternative approaches to health that motivated Adam*'s mother to never have him vaccinated. “Since birth, I have never had a single vaccine,” says the man, now in his thirties, from his residence in the Laurentians. “I remember my mother writing letters to the director to prevent us from receiving vaccines. [...] She believed a lot more in natural and alternative medicine than in western medicine,” he recalls. According to him, vaccinated people are more fragile, because their immune system has been “compromised.” “For me, it's better not to be vaccinated than to risk dying,” believes the man who prefers to take care of his health with vitamins, a healthy diet and physical activity.

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“Surviving our disagreements”

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“The fact that people can no longer speak or identify themselves [as unvaccinated] shows how far we have come into something very unhealthy,” says A. Hadi Qaderi, a 50-year-old from Montreal who was not vaccinated. What he denounces is the social climate in which health measures have plunged us: “It is as if there were two camps that demonize each other. It involves the government, the media and the scientific community. People who ask questions — which is the basis of science, however — are treated with all sorts of things.” For Dr. Cécile Rousseau, “you have to remain credible and transparent in speaking to the public, and remain credible for people who oppose public health measures and vaccinations. The general idea is really to say: we are living in a period of crisis, it is important to mobilize together, but be careful, we must be able to survive our disagreements.”

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Dr. Isabelle Leblanc, a general practitioner in Côte-des-Neiges and president of the organization Médecins Québecois pour le regime public, explains that she often sees patients who are less well informed. To counter the current polarization, she advocates a human approach. “I sit down, I explain myself and I see their fears; it helps change my mind,” she says. It is not always easy, some need several visits, and others refuse anyway. “Some people cry because they are happy that we are having an open discussion about this subject. People feel very judged, they are scapegoats, so they can't talk to their doctor for fear of judgment. We see the reasons and we see how we can help them. People are happy that we are talking about it,” she concludes.

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‍*The names of some of the people we met have been changed at their request in order to protect their anonymity.

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To go further:

• Messenger RNA: Messenger RNA was discovered in 1961 at the Pasteur Institute by two American scientists, Jim Watson and Francis Crick. Thanks to this discovery, a vaccine can be administered more quickly than a traditional vaccine, which can take up to 10 years to produce.
• CoVivre has provided tools related to vaccination, to be consulted Here.